Ex-US Defense Secretary on challenges Ukraine faces defending Odesa

 

The former defense secretary

under former President Donald Trump.

Mark Esper,

Secretary Esper,

thank you for being here tonight.

When you see what Russia is doing

targeting these green ports

civilian infrastructure

now, even

opening the door

to attacks on civilian ships.

Does it seem like a new level

of desperation to you or

what do you read into this

It does seem like a new level of terror.

Clearly, it is payback.

And they've said so

for the attack on the Kerch Bridge,

which was also,

of course,

a personal insult to Putin who

who opened that bridge a few years ago.

So it's that

they're trying to destroy the grain,

at least

a million tons of grain there, which

which is also horrific

because it's going to cause,

you know,

food insecurity issues

around the world, particularly in Africa.

And there's some speculation

that they're doing that to raise

grain prices globally.

Which, of course, would happen,

and that would help

Russian grain exports.

So there's a lot of factors to play here.

Also, the drones

that struck

the Kerch Bridge were

launched from Odessa.

So that's another factor.

And I'd say

probably a third

one is the fact that this

this attack on Odessa distracts

the Russian people

from the ongoing drama

with promotion

and Bognor

and everything

that else is happening

in the upper

ranks of the Russian military.

Yeah.

Which we now know the vulgar later

is surfaced in Belarus.

The first time since that mutiny happened

last month.

But Secretary,

as for the Ukrainian forces,

what they are essentially struggling with

is to beat back these attacks.

You mentioned

the drone attacks there

because they don't have advanced

air defense systems

in the southern part of the country

where Odessa is.

You know,

what we were told

is that they were only able to destroy

five out of the 19 cruise missiles

that were launched last night.

I mean, what

what do they need to fight this?

Do you think they'll get it?

Yeah, look, I think

a preponderance of the air

defense assets are probably a key

protecting the capital

where they should be.

Those are difficult to move.

The other

complicating factor

is that Odessa is a port city

within a direct line of attack.

Of from Crimea to its south east.

And so

you're not able to prepare

a layered defense

like you can do with

with Kiev,

which is further

in the interior of the country.

So they're going to have to quickly move

air defense assets down

as close as they can to protect Odessa

and then maybe put

some aircraft up in the skies

as well to help out.

But, of course,

you know,

the whole aircraft issue

gets into the

the whole matter of why we didn't provide

Ukraine with F-16 sooner.

They would have helped in this situation

some and certainly would have helped

would help in the counter-offensive also.

Yeah,

I know you've been advocating for that.

I also want to get your response

to something

that your former boss

for President Donald Trump, said today

about Ukraine.

The notion that we would even consider

admitting Ukraine into NATO's

at this time is completely unhinged.

The last thing

that this incompetent administration

should be doing

is risking war

with a nuclear armed Russia.

I should note, of course,

President Biden

said he doesn't believe

that Ukraine is ready to join NATO, yet

they've pushed that

until after the war is over.

But do you have a concern

that if Trump is reelected,

he would try to pull

the United States out of NATO's

I've said

in the past

I've had

I would have concerned about

his intentions

with a variety of alliances,

pulling troops

out of Japan, out of Korea,

and certainly out of Naito.

I think any move on

Naito would probably begin

with cutting off the supply of arms

and ammunition materiel

to Ukraine as well.

So I think that would precipitate that.

But look at

the issue about Ukraine.

Ukraine should be NATO.

Nobody expected that to happen.

Now, I actually think

they should have been

given a better

a better plan, a better timeline,

a clear steps.

And that was the disappointment

I had coming out of

what was an otherwise very

successful summit in Vilnius, Lithuania.

Yeah, that was last week

where President Biden was.

Of course,

another thing, you know,

you have talked about this.

You've said that Trump was a threat

to democracy

in light of what happened on January 6th.

Now, of course,

he has gotten a target letter.

He appears to be on the verge

of being indicted

and that investigation potentially.

Do you believe

that the charges

would be appropriate here?

Well, I haven't stated the charges.

I'm not a lawyer.

But look, there are some basic principles

of American democracy, and one is

nobody is above the law.

To there should be accountability.

And No.

Three is.

Look,

the president is innocent

until proven guilty.

So I think this legal process

needs to play itself out.

And, of course, for President

Trump, he's dealing with, what,

two or three

of these types of

inquiries, indictments now. So

he's he's

I hope he has a good legal team.

You wrote in your book

that before the election

you were worried about Trump

trying to use the military

to hang on to power

if he lost that election,

something that obviously was later

actually suggested by outside advisers

in a meeting that we know

Jack Schmitt is asking about.

I mean,

what does that say to you,

the people who were suggesting something

like that?

We're invited into the Oval Office

and now it's the subject.

It's at least part of this investigation.

Of course,

I was fired on November 9th, a week

after the election.

And my big concern

at the end of October of that year

and leading up to the election was

what would the president do

with the military,

whether he won or lost?

Would he deployed

the National Guard, for example,

or maybe even active duty troops

against protest tours?

And so I write about this in my memoir,

of course, the concerns

I had a private meeting

I had with the head of the National Guard

to discuss these contingencies

and so forth and so on.

But the other stuff

that was far more dramatic, of course,

didn't happen until December,

when it was,

I think

late December

when President Trump had a meeting with

General Flynn,

retired General Flynn and others,

and they talked about seizing

ballot boxes.

That, of course, is very alarming.

And I suspect that's where the

would be

a critical element of this January

six investigation.

I'm curious.

You've said

you don't think he is

fit for office, that he shouldn't

be back in office.

How do you plan to handle

the Republican primary?

Are you going to endorse another

candidate here

No, I don't plan on endorsing anybody.

I said that

I wouldn't support Donald Trump.

I don't think he's fit for office

because he puts himself first.

And I think anybody running proper

should put the country first

and they should abide by their oath

and do a number of other things.

Look, I

there's a crowd of about 12

or so Republican candidates beyond Trump.

I think at least half of them are

very credible.

Any of those six

or so could beat President Biden

if they become the nominee.

And what I'm looking for

and I'm willing to assist

any one of them,

help them,

I'm looking for

somebody who puts the country

first, who will abide by their oath,

who will

advance

traditional Republican policy objective

and who will bring the Republican Party

together, grow the party

and win elections.

You have to win elections.

And and Donald Trump has not been able

to win elections,

whether they are House,

Senate or White House.

And so that's

what Republicans need to do.

Just amazing for me.

I mean, I know those are

that's your view on this.

We've obviously talked to many times

secretaries for.

But to hear

someone who was

the Pentagon chief for now

candidate for president,

saying that you would willingly help

his challengers

who are running against him.

Just speaks to the moment that we're

in, I think.

But Secretary Esper,

thank you for your time tonight.

Thanks, Caitlin.

Have a good evening.