Trump administration, Sara Matthews
and Victoria Nurse,
who served as chief counsel
for then Vice President Joe Biden.
Sarah,
so you were one of the witnesses
who testified before the House January
six select committee.
So you're aware of Trump's actions
around the Capitol attack.
Are you at all surprised to hear
that the special counsel's
case against Trump seems to be larger,
involving more evidence
and more witnesses
than Trump's attorneys expected?
I don't think that's surprising at all.
I think that they had access
to different material
that the congressional committee
could not get access to,
particularly witnesses.
Obviously,
we know that the vice president went
before the grand jury in this case,
and that wasn't something that happened
with the January six committee.
And so I think that they have reason
to be worried, the Trump team,
because I think that
they will have even more evidence.
And obviously,
the evidence that was uncovered
in the January six
committee hearings
was really shocking, particularly.
Cassidy Hutchinson,
my former colleagues testimony.
So, Victoria,
according to multiple outlets,
including The Wall Street
Journal, the target letter
that Trump received on Sunday
from Jack
Smith says he could be charged
with deprivation of rights,
which might be AP.
People are speculating,
taking away the right
to vote for the right to vote yeah.
Conspiracy to commit an offense
against the United States,
which that's obvious, and tampering
with a witness.
What do these charges
tell you about the case
that the special counsel might have?
Well, let me just
clarify one thing on tampering.
That's the title of the statute,
but it's really an obstruction statute
that they're referring to. Right.
They're investing that.
They're allegation being the Trump
tried to stop their investigation. Yes.
Yes. In some ways.
So I think these are pretty expected.
The only twist given
the January six committee,
they're expected
the only twist is really the deprivation
of rights, the conspiracy
to deprive one of the voting rights.
And that makes perfect sense.
It's an old statute.
18 U.S.C.
two, 42
and it's been here since reconstruction.
And it's often associated with rights
not to be discriminated against,
but voting rights.
It's one of our most fundamental rights.
Sara, I want to read you this reporting
from The New York Times.
Quote, Subpoenas issued by Mr.
Smith, that's the special counsel
suggests
that he has been scrutinizing Mr.
Trump's political action
committee, Save America PAC.
It raised as much as $250 million,
telling donors
the money was needed to fight
election fraud, even as Mr.
Trump had been told repeatedly
that there was no evidence to back up
those claims of election fraud.
The House January six
committee had also suggested that Mr.
Trump and his associates
had defrauded his own supporters.
It described
how after the election,
they appealed to donors
as many as 25 times
a day
to help fight the results in court
and contribute to a defense fund.
But no such fund existed,
and they use the money
for other purposes,
including spending more than $200,000
at Trump Hotel properties.
I mean,
do you think that Donald Trump repeatedly
takes advantage of his base?
Yeah, I think he preys on his supporters.
He lies to them.
And obviously that results
in these people giving them money,
thinking that you know,
they're helping save democracy
all because they think
that the election was stolen.
Yet Trump has been told repeatedly
there is no evidence of fraud,
despite his claims
that there was substantial fraud.
And he was told repeatedly that he lost.
But he is just unwilling
to accept that fact.
And so it is really disgusting to see him
take advantage of his base in that way.
And obviously,
that ultimately led to a deadly riot
on our nation's capitol.
Those folks would not
have been there that day
unless Donald Trump told them that
Mike Pence had an authority
to overturn the election,
which Trump was told.
Mike Pence did not have
that authority yet.
Those people showed up
because they were told that.
And so they thought they were helping
save our country.
And so it is really sad
and just frankly disgusting for him
and anyone
who is still associated with him.
Would that theoretically
be breaking
the law
telling people
that you're going to telling supporters,
we're going to use this money
to fight election fraud
even though, you know, there's
no election fraud? Fraud.
I mean, that's the essence of this.
The fake elector scheme is fraud.
And there's another aspect to this.
You know,
you have to prove
if you're going to obstruct justice,
that he acted with corruption.
So there's a problem.
Some people say, did he benefit from it?
So that evidence will take away
an important legal argument
that was raised in
some of the other January 6th
indictments.
So in the in the Target letter,
Special Counsel
Smith told Trump
he had four days to appear
before the grand jury
if he wanted to present his case.
This is kind of the last step
before an indictment comes down.
Usually that's tomorrow.
If you were advising Trump,
would you tell him to go
before the grand jury? No. Why not?
Well, because
given what we've seen of his loquacious
snus and tendency to take himself
to a deeper hole,
as a lawyer,
you want to protect your client.
And so I would suggest that he stay away.
Most people,
most lawyers are saying that
in the press,
oftentimes defendants
don't appear
before the grand jury
because it's only a probable cause.
It's not beyond a reasonable doubt.
So he can make all sorts
of legal arguments
about the indictment moving forward.
He can challenge the evidence.
He doesn't really need to show up.
Sara, you quit the Trump
administration on January six, right?
That was the day that you resigned.
But I just want to ask you,
and maybe this is an unfair question.
Did you think that Donald Trump
preyed on his supporters
and took advantage of his supporters
before then?
Or is that something that
and you were in denial about it
and you look back on it
and just explain that to me?
No,
I knew that on election night
that Donald Trump had lost
and I think that folks
were still holding out hope,
thinking that things would turn around.
But obviously, his litigation
failed time and time again.
I wanted to stay on
with the Trump administration
till the very end
because I had made my boss
that promise that I would.
But ultimately,
it was a slow burn for me.
I was disgusted by his lies
about the election.
And that
obviously ended up with the deadly riot
that happened
on January six at the Capitol.
And so I looking back,
I have some regrets
about not speaking out sooner,
but that's why
I think it's so important
that there are folks like myself,
Melissa Ferri, Griffin,
Cassidy Hutchinson, etc.,
who are willing to call out these lies.
Absolutely.
Sara Matthews and Victoria
Harris, thanks to both you.
Appreciate it.
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