assalamu alaikum welcome to the mindful muslim podcast where i spoke to hadur who is a
neuroscience graduate we spoke about lots of interesting things including mental health
the muslim community her interest in neurogenesis
i hope you enjoy this podcast do make sure to listen
assalamualaikum thank you so much for joining me on this podcast thank you for having me um let's start with maybe a little
introduction tell us who you are what you're doing at the moment perhaps what you studied at university okay well there's
not really much to say about me but i'm hydra i'm a neuroscience graduate
with who's ignited with curiosity i like to ask why why why then what do we do now
and that's why i ended up here i think so yeah that's all i have to say i know you also did a neuroscience true
true true true is that um undergrad like you was biomed i did that at queen mary yeah i think
was yours westminster yeah and yeah so clinical neuroscience at king's
and you're in europe see my one wasn't clinical it was john mainly lab based um a bigger course right probably i
don't know mine was a whole like four years september to september oh yeah no breathing space okay yeah yeah
it felt like a three years by the way it felt longer than my degree um yeah tell me more about uh
research that you've done your dissertation what you chose to do it in and why um well neuroscience is actually really
interesting because it's not just one fixed thing so you for example we both came from a biomedical background to pursue
neuroscience right so we came from sort of a science-y approach or scientific cleanse and then
i had people in my course who actually did engineering who did philosophy who did psychology so you find that it
sort of ties different areas of expertise to this one thing called the brain so
it's sort of like is the brain a compartment or is it a whole synergy it's sort of really confusing at some
points and i think you also can see that as well um the reason why i took neuroscience is
because i'm nosy i like to know a lot of things especially things that we can't really
know about and the brain is one of them so i know recently there was like a huge
um a huge event with one of the leading neuroscientists where they sort of it's
sort of the equivalent of like the baftas if you want to say where they can talk about their latest research
here and there and because neuroscience is quite a new niche i would say like 40 50 years old
[Music] it's still confusing as how do we research the brain
do we see it in terms of compartments do we take it from the philosophical approach how do we tie all
these different things and then you have the whole statistical drug and that comes in so it becomes so skewed and i think
that's so interesting to me because it means the more i know the less i know so the more there is to find out
so the reason why i went i went into it is for a few different reasons one of them
being personal i had a close friend who had a situation where it was neurological and i was like what's going
on here i want to know so that stimulated me um another thing was that ever since i was small i was um so
fascinated by the brain but i didn't really have a leading uh sort of person that i look up to who knew much about the brain
right so i abused wikipedia that time so still do i quit so i think that's what
took me there and then subhanallah throughout my research even though i came really scientific really wanting to know the
mechanisms and this and that i actually became more achieved to the cognitive part of it
more of the mental health part of it more of understanding the human rather than the machine okay
so that's what really took it in another route my thesis was based on a concept called
neurogenesis okay so neurogenesis is the stimulation of new brain cells for
the longest time we assumed that all the brain cells or all the nerve cells you have in your body
so those are the only ones you will ever have okay so for example you have skin cells so if
i shed like my cheek or my skin i've already lost a couple of skin cells right but that will be regenerated you will have them over time
that's why when you like trip and you get a wound your body regenerates regenerates right right that doesn't
happen with enough the nervous system which is the reason why you have issues like paralysis or like
als and so on so what they found out in recent times is that there is an area
of the brain called the dentate gyrus so i don't know if you've heard of the hippocampus right that part of the brain
is really important involved in memory and memory and lots of things so within the hippocampus there's a
small area called the dentate gyrus think of it as like the corridor in the room so they found out this particular
area can actually grow new brain cells okay so that was huge that was huge so nervous stem cells
so that was huge in the science community because it means does that mean i can cure does that mean i can um facilitate
certain things because they found that the dentate gyrus has got to do with spatial awareness and memory and so on
so that's where my research was focused on it was actually focused on um looking at cognitive performance and
from the dentate irs with an older with an older population and of course our master's level so the
results are never coherent you have to take it to like a 10 year old phd research but it sort of ignited like an interest
on there's definitely more to find out especially the connection between um mental health and the systematic
views of neurons so for example they found that the dentate gyrus actually has a role in depression and mood disorders and things like that
or how can we stimulate neurogenesis how can we support this to help prevent to help prevent cure
depression not cure depression as such but help ease or help stimulate the growth of new
brain cells so they found for example intermittent fasting is one so that's fasting for at least 15 hours
no food so that fasting meant so that faster more neurons more there's a chance of more um
generation of neurons yep it's not a one day thing is something that you'd have to do for a couple of months and so on to actually
see an effect intermittent fasting is actually a really new field of research that's taken more seriously over time
what other things did you come across that um would facilitate neurogenesis whether
were there key things that you came across because so it comes subhanallah it ties down to actually
very simple things so you know how like we're in like in recent times you see the explosion of
multivitamins and doing this supplements yes it came down to actually very basic human needs which was
exercise intermittent fasting replenishment of antioxidants so
antioxidants are certain molecules that reduce inflammation for example which are found in like blueberries dark
chocolate things like that bitter foods bitter foods um so it came down to the very basics
subhanallah okay and it's like when you when you think about these things you're like it actually doesn't take that much to
become so balanced so because we're so think we always think that we need this and this and
this we actually need to restrict and rather add that makes sense so yeah
some of the um reading that i've done in terms of neurogenesis also found that uh crunchy food
could increase neurogenesis that's a really good point that's called mastication so there's a few theories why that could
happen one of them is that crunchy fuse can stimulate more blood flow to the brain
okay more blood flow means more nutrients go into that area which can stimulate more brain growth more brain cell growth
tell me a little bit more about how neurogenesis has been linked to mental health problems so
as i told you it was just it was associated with mood disorders and depression and if you know about depression we it's
usually got to do with serotonin if you know about serotonin it's got to do with certain receptors certain neurotransmitters
so because it's with depression with like certain mental health issues it's never one thing it's sort of a combination of a network
of things and that could be one aspect i see that if we try to improve neurogenesis could potentially
exactly exactly it's not the exact solution because there's so many aspects to it
but it's definitely a method yeah so i can imagine it's still a very ongoing thing
like up and coming kind of research where yeah it's just very cool the way forward yeah utilized in
some way to create potentially novel therapies to help yeah it could seem like as a partner
therapy okay in that sense yeah it's super interesting i would definitely recommend people to start look into it and take it
more seriously especially with regards to intermittent fasting because not only that on a brain health but even as a
spiritual or mental level it really does change the game in that sense tell me a bit more about uh what you found in your dissertation
in terms of conclusions what did you do so with regards to clients inclusions like i mentioned it is tricky to sort of
find statistical evidence when it comes to a master's level but with um other research or upcoming
research they do support the idea that intermittent fasting or that neurogenesis
is does have um and it does have an impact okay and especially when we did not know it
could because we never knew about this particular area and especially the dentate gyrus where these new brain
cells do grow it's got to do with a concept called pattern recognition
so the ability to differentiate between a blue shape a blue pen or like a rubber
that distinction or two similar shapes okay so as we get older we find that our pattern recognition weakens
and that could be because of that particular area so things like that which we didn't see which was very important is actually
very important and i think that just goes back to the way how everything is connected in the brain
it's really difficult to brain map if that makes sense so um so so i think
in summary the link between neurogenesis and and mood disorders has
been made it's just a case of it's just a case of further research replicating reaffirming
funding and things like that yeah um i wanted to ask you also what you're
doing currently we spoke a little bit off-camera about um what you plan to do this year in the
future i also asked you about phd and whether you considered that so so tell me again um i think i think we'll
also as a society we tend to be very future oriented so what's next what's
next to never just live a little bit so for now alhamdulillah i think i want to like um indulge in
mental health i want to take part in seeing for myself rather than in the books which i have
for so long um giving yourself some time because like you say we're very on to the next thing on to the next
always on to the next thing i think we actually have a very difficult time with living in the present because it's the only thing we
have but that's the very difficult thing that we do have um so with regards to a phd for example phds
are not as easy as they look first of all they require mental training and financial training
and i think also it's very difficult because you need to understand what your purpose is when it comes to a phd right
and not just doing one for the name not just doing one just to get doctor at the front yeah with a phd you need to
understand that i think for me personally i have to have a purpose when i do a phd
am i doing this just for the sake of saying i did this and i found this or i'm doing this to support someone out there
i think that's really important and you're bringing something new to the realm or having that impact also just being a
help to humanity i think at the end of the day that's the whole point where we're not soul creatures no man is
an island if that makes sense if i'm not going to benefit someone else out there there's really no point
yeah there's really no point to it i think we've become so self-centered in the way we deal with things just to up
our cv we actually don't go beyond that so i think renewal of intentions actually plays a big part when it comes
to doing things like a phd which is quite a big deal absolutely so inshallah this period in your life will be you finding
kind of delving deeper into what your interests are and possibly possibly taking that into a phd but
possibly being a lot more clear about why you're doing it in the first place inshallah i would like to see for myself
the way how people are affected the social implications the political the even the islamic from the islamic
cleanse i think that's really important because i do think that's missing in sort of a secular and public
institution that's not taken seriously and rightly so because it's not like they care about that
but i think also it's in a manner for us as muslims to think in that kind of perspective as
well because it's very easy to get lost in the source of things so i think taking time out and seeing
things from a bird's-eye view helps in that sense rather than tying down to the
gritty and forgetting what's your actual purpose is here yeah absolutely so hopefully this time will be you know
just excellent for you to know exactly what you want to do next and have a clearer picture of why you're
doing certain things yeah and also like charities like inspirated minds are a good way for you
to connect with others to actually see things for yourself and also put critical thinking in action
i'm interested how you came across the charity actually i actually came across through google research i actually didn't hear much sadly
because i found that it's actually a missing niche with regards to muslim mental health i think there's
definitely an urgency because there are so many taboos to break so i so wish i heard earlier
but alhamdulillah i'm here now um i do why did you why were you looking what
were you looking for because i wanted like i said i wanted something to align with my purpose i'm like well i've studied this how can
i put it into good use okay this is a way right absolutely because otherwise it's selfless just to
have a piece of paper and not do anything with it just look pretty on linkedin no there's more to it amazing so you
were looking at yeah i was literally i was literally searching muslim mental health and things like that and i think like
america really gets to me because like you have things like the akreen institute and all this and all that i'm like where's the uk at this so i was
like i did a little search and i found inspirated mine actually on linkedin i clicked on i'm like oh there's some
opportunities let me just like waffle away i'm like yeah i really hope they take me seriously so i didn't see no response for like two
weeks i'm like them ones junk mail material and then a few weeks later i think like
i think not shortly after i got a response i'm like oh so they are taking me seriously so subhanallah they did to an extent
they invited me to talk so yeah alhamdulillah that's where we're going good fantastic so tell me a little
bit more about your interest in mental health and specifically the muslim community obviously you're muslim yourself
but have you come across a close or distant friends or family
that have suffered that or have you yourself experienced anything i think we would be lying if we said we've never come across
i think and the statistics are so highly likely that we would have the issues with statistics as well is that they're
not even representative because how many muslims would actually disclose yes i do have an issue because to begin with
there's so much stigma surrounding it it's like a bubble of stigma and even like to even let's just get
from the beginning what is even mental health because if i were to give you like the dictionary definition of mental health
like it's like the well-being the mental well-being of a person it takes psychological sociological
spiritual self-affirmation all this but then there's such a euphemism with mental
illness so it's like automatically if i say mental health to a muslim who doesn't really know they'll automatically think
mental illness i'm like oh no we can't talk about that that means that means you're you want to weaken
your faith or something like that because what happens is there's like there's only two ways to deal with about it do i
go to my westernized gp or do i go to my loyal imam so it literally becomes the two
and it's like if i admit i have a problem that means do i have a problem with my faith that's the first question that's the
first question and then you have something like stigma so stigma what do we define it as like we say it's
a we say sort of um it's a situation where you're not fully accepted right so let's say for
example let's say for example i know that i have a problem and i don't know how to deal with that and blah blah blah blah blah
blah so to actually recognize that you do have republicans already huge right you've come to terms that i suffer from
this if i were to go to somebody who doesn't understand it see a muslim let's say family for
example that i have this issue it's like what are you talking about go pray away or something like that
right and it's sort of the settling because you have two concepts of stigma there's like social stigma which the muslim community
really suffers from which is the denial of an acceptance of if someone has an issue and then you have something even worse
which is self-stigma self-stigma is sort of propagated by social stigma the only reason why
someone would have a stigma within themselves is because of social stigma initially initially so staff stigma is your own
rejection of your own situation right because you say is so much more
dangerous it's so much more dangerous so much more problematic and actually interestingly you know for people who
say it's shameful i genuinely think because they're the ones who are suffering first and they don't want to admit it
ironically i actually think it's one of the symptoms of a mental health issue if you're telling me it's a shame because i would say
yeah you need a guy yeah it's it's it's really sad what it's sort of become
because our religion doesn't even go with like um go pray away or deal with that
we if we were to take things seriously communication is such a big deal it's far more
practical it's it makes sense though because i feel like if you're going to keep pushing it away just manifests into
something worse right it's like me denial of situations and then what is that going to turn to
like anxiety or is it going to become even worse or like one thing leads to another yeah and
stop you from living yeah your sort of normal life
yeah i feel like the idea with normal life though i feel as i'm growing up i'm learning that
everybody has a battle right everybody has like so many some formulas
there's some form of another some people don't realize they do but some people really don't they don't know where to go
from here so for example like say if i have a friend or a family member that i know
they're battling a mental health issue or something like that i actually um i actually congratulate
them like so you recognize that you want to do something about this so even admitting it to yourself getting
over the self stigma is a huge first step it's a huge first step because you've been conditioned and you've grown up in such an environment
to not talk about this ever it stunts you it really does stunt you because you end up like sort of
perfecting your social mask and hiding your character very true so it's sort of
and then it doesn't help being a diaspora or growing up with like first generation
and things like that you have and that sort of further perplexed with identity issues like where do we go from here
and then where do i seek comfort in like a secular way of like dealing with mental health and like and things like
that when there is like so many things i can do first i think the way how we define mental
health is already an issue so seeing it as a way to mental
illness rather than mental well-being is already wrong first of all and also we have the way
that we deal with emotions our emotional jargon first of all is horrible we do not know how to
formulate we do not know how to say i'm feeling this so i think with a muslim community we're like a pressure
cooker frustration right i'm feeling angry this is unjustified
there's a lot of victim blaming here and there but we don't say why i read this thing where it says when
you're feeling something ask why three times because with the third why you get to the roo
so say for example my brother's angry i'm like why are you angry he's like because he didn't put this away i'm like well why are you angry
it's like because every time i tell you don't listen i was like oh so you're angry because i'm not listening to you like you're not taking me seriously
so he feels emotionally invalidated because i'm not respecting his listening right right so that's the core of that's
the core of it so all it took for me is just to say why about being annoying
but it i think we need to sort of strip the way how we deal with these when it
comes to emotions because um it's actually interesting you find
the really tough guarded people are actually the most um hurt people when it comes to dealing with situations like that
or sort of the alpha situation and yeah so i don't know where i was
going with this because it's very interesting though because these are all things that
techniques or ways that i will bear in mind because i think like you say the barriers to
communication are so many but if we only you know
somebody like you would would explain yeah or educate you could then
um yeah change or or you know uh make better the way that you're communicating
i feel like and it's such a simple thing just asking why anything i feel like when we do what we can go wrong it's like
it's being i'm unapologetically myself or just love yourself and everything
it's too far extreme i think it's first of all it's too far extreme and it's so egotistical doesn't even make sense
because you're telling me to love myself myself that naps is like it's the thing that's ruining me i think
we should love i think we should be compassionate with ourselves rather than this thing called love love because it
can be very obscured with does it mean that i'm supposed to like treat myself every single time
or does it mean i need to wake up an hour earlier to sort of nourish my thinking if that makes sense try and figure out
that balance try and figure out what's for you it's what works for you and also like start to question yourself
start to question your actions or like to achieve mental clarity sort of think
why did i react like this was it conscious or was i an autopilot yes my emotion i
can't control it but surely i can control my action towards it absolutely your reaction to
my reaction to what's happening inside my own head so because i think we tend to be very
reactive especially with the way social media or the online community is set up nowadays everything's so instant
everything's so instant council culture is the latest trend council culture is like say if someone
comes out and makes a mistake this person is cancelled oh my god unfollow unsubscribe
i don't know if you've heard of it but there's sort of an obsession with like attacking people no i haven't i feel very old no no no yeah it's such a thing now tell
me yeah council culture is like the latest trend cancel cancel okay it's like say if
someone said something out of line it's like oh my god i knew this person was a horrible treacherous human being they
need to be cancelled it makes sense because when they were seven years old they made someone trip and blah blah blah yeah it gets like i saw this coming it's
almost reaffirming what you already thought which is just a bias which is like a bias and a fallacy right
there so yeah i think with and also
which just brings social media is a funny thing but it just brings another thing where people say um me being on social media oh that's
not me whoever you see online that's not me and i actually find that that's really not true because i'm like
we probably we are so much more present online than we are offline because if you see everyone offline they're on
their phone being online so you're trying to tell me then which part is you are you just like a walking
entity now like which part is you then so i'm like so confused like how do you are you trying to reject yourself by not
being yourself it's so confusing what do you think are the good aspects of any of social media
i think networking with the right people okay but then the good aspects can only come if you know what you want
right because if i'm following 10 000 people and they're all fashion pages and you're telling me social media is
toxic you're not helping yourself though you're not helping yourself it's like
renewal intentions what do i want to learn how can this affect my daily life every time i'm scrolling
mindlessly yeah can i get something else how is this useful how is this useful to me me going on the bus and just reading
something a definition is that much more better than like seeing the latest celebrity i don't know got the latest surgery or something
absolutely i think what you said before it really resonates about asking yourself more questions yeah
questioning your own actions yes before others because what we tend to do we judge ourselves by intentions and others
by judgments right absolutely we tend to do that quite a lot and then
and thank god our judgments doesn't come into play because god is the best judge here because our
judge our judgment is skewed by the daily like for me like our lenses are like
always changing i assumed the majority of the time what you know is an assumption anyway absolutely
it really is that and i think that's the whole point of questioning you're trying to like get to the root of things and
get to the real truth of things right and inshallah knowing more about yourself and who you are allows you to
know others better as well i think that that is a pivotal role i think personally for me like discovering
myself or getting to know myself removing the social mask and actually finding do i get triggered by this
what ticks me off how did i react is it fair things like that i'm able to understand
another person because that's probably the way they process things as well yeah so so subhanallah like i've become
like a while ago i would be such an impatient person to the extent it's like because if someone's doing something and i'm like
oh there's such a better way of doing this why don't they just do abc's but then surely if i think i did this to
reach here they're probably thinking the same thing so it's only right to be patient for them to reach their own destination why would
you rush that absolutely they're on their own journey and you may have had a similar one before i think it's also about
remembering where you started from working i think it's really important to reflect in that sense
really really important i think reflection is actually an active process right it's something it's a mental exercise i think it it has
reflection has become a bit of a i don't know just a thing that people
say and there's nothing what do you think behind it i agree what do you like how would you define reflection
um i would say practical things like during prayer or journaling or doing
something journaling is a really good one to me journaling is a really good one i've recently
i've recently spoke to my friends something called future journaling which i came across a psychologist online
and what she does is that she focuses on a pattern once a month it's like i want to develop this pattern
okay um it's like dear my future self i would like to develop this pattern this is what i'm grateful for if i do
achieve through these patterns and i'm hoping to become this so what you're actually doing is you're rewiring
in that sense your brain your neuronal circuits because by writing it down i'm making a
conscious effort to do it in my daily life right and i think for example if i want to improve
discipline for example now discipline if we know it comes into every wall in life so i'll take that to the gym to my
prayer to eating healthy things like that so making that consciousness within that future journaling
and also there's that resistance with yourself it's like you have two people fighting and i don't know if it's just you but
with me my future self is always like some incredible person it's like well she's efficient she's a
badass she can do everything that she wants to do and i'm just here looking like a slump i'm like how is she going to get there how is she
going to get there we have such an idealistic versions of ourselves but we don't want to take that away but you find it um
motivating to journal to future journal i think and you're giving yourself a time scale as well i think with a time scale
i'd like to be more goal-oriented than a time scale because i think with the time scale i'm rushing myself and maybe
my journey takes and if you don't achieve it you might and if i don't achieve it i'm already like setting negative conditions to it
yeah and then it will put me off so i think um more importantly is commitment
i think commitment and consistency over than motivation and things like that because motivation i think is associated
with like a with like a dopamine pop right right next monday new diet sort of thing
motivation is actually we actually have sort of um a fetish with motivation in recent times
social media and it's like i don't know if you see like forex traders or the latest ceos like this is how i got my million and it's
like that and everyone's inspired for like five minutes so this whole motivation and
toxic positivity i'll say because with the things with motivation toxic positivity we're not actually dealing
with why do you want to do it okay what purpose okay you want to be rich why to get a big house okay after that why
what for so i think by routing it to our fundamental roots
in my case as a muslim is where is it going to take me when i die right i think that's i think reflections
on death do help because like absolutely i think sometimes we forget that we're mortal we are we have an end date
so things like that do take into effect when you're reflecting though because it sort of gives you sort of
like actually maybe i should take things more seriously so for example recently i saw
a video on um a parent and an older child he's like a man but he was with his mom outside
okay and she was she suffers from dementia okay so she doesn't know who her son is right and he takes her out to like a cafeteria
or like a restaurant or something like that and he's just discussing with her he's like mom do you remember me things
like that and she's like i don't know who you are and at that point i felt my heart ripped so i'm like
so sometimes when my mom is liking me oh can you do this can you do that and i'm taking it like and i'm just taking it lightly on like
yeah on me when i'm ready when i want to when i don't know and then these like little moments of just interaction of my mom recognizing
who i am like that's already a huge one appreciating that just appreciating and being grateful because they're like
what is there to be with like with jennings like there's a big thing on gratitude now absolutely but with gratitude it tends
to be very simplistic it's like i'm grateful for waking up well why are you grateful for waking up what could
you do to wake up like everyone's awake but not everyone's alive sort of thing so if i'm waking up the
reason why i'm grateful wake up because it means i have a chance to do this or i can better at this therefore i can
do this things like that so yeah it's a really the whole thing with getting to know
yourself and reflections is a whole dense topic because i think we really lack on how to deal with that
because with that comes emotional reasoning and the best way and interestingly with emotional
reasoning questioning my emotions or validating things here and there or other people's which is more important
developing empathy more importantly developing compassionate empathy
which is actually really different from sympathy because i don't know a lot of people tend to be confused with
sympathy and empathy right yeah like i can be sympathetic like say okay you hurt yourself
like i get it that's hard for you but i don't necessarily feel what you're feeling but empathy i'm i'm really feeling what
you're feeling for example if you see a close friend or your mom cry you start crying for no reason i'm like ouch i'm
crying so there's empathy right you're feeling the emotions that it took to reach there right and more importantly is
compassionate empathy so it's like i'm feeling your emotions but i want to help
and this is where we're stuck in the muslim community so it's like i get you must be hard
going on through something like that but doing to help is like that's your problem though
like that's from the last parent tyler like that's your problem wow how do you think we can overcome that
especially when it comes to mental health what what do you think are the things that that we can try to bear in mind there's
different things so i mean as an individual so to start with active listening can help so when i talk
about the things in the grand schemes room there's a lot of things we can do but for an individual purpose i think there
are key character traits we need to take active listening is one so when i say active listening i don't
mean just hearing somebody out yeah must be tough all right it's me
take into account knowing this is what they're trying to tell me this is what they're trying to reach to
therefore how can we go from here together that journey of listening that journey of me
taking what you're saying and contextualizing it to bettering yourself is already something so i'm not saying
for like um muslim leaders to necessarily be psychiatrists and things like that but acknowledging there is an issue or say
yeah you're right actually so this is how we can do it we can we can recommend you the service or
things like that knowing that there's help out there because the amount of barriers we have in the muslim community being cultural
family economical or even say for example language the way we're brought up here we speak
possibly better english than our parents right yeah so when it comes for example i don't know if you go with your parents or your auntie to a gp and like you have
to translate that's already a barrier right to like a physiological lead let alone a mental health one so i think
people who are in neuroscience or who are in psychology or like psychiatry or medicine
there needs to be a sort of investment when it comes to dealing with muslims and mental health especially with various ethnic minorities
because you'd be surprised the amount of the silence epidemic that is going on
it's huge i mean you mentioned like the first barrier of of you taking the step to realize
that you're unwell and then the the other barriers come into play
where you do go and see a health professional and and then the health profession you know
you've overcome that big step but then where do we go from here it's sort of like okay i've taken i've
i've done what i've done now i have to deal with my family why or you know why yeah my family or why am i not getting better
or yeah you know or must be like um the thing is a bit tricky because it's
like it's like you may feel better alone but then when it comes to with family or
with like the outside world you're like do i seek more comfort in like the western approach rather than the actual
because it becomes bad like oh so the muslim so my like religion doesn't deal with this kind of side or it's like
everything is a taboo or i shouldn't talk about that because we don't really have these problems and things like that
and then there's also something which is sad that you see is blaming yourself so for example oh it's because i don't
take my parents seriously oh i must deserve this oh god is punishing me and already that's that sort of becomes
and then your your own faith becomes fragmented because you wanted to get closer to
begin with but you become more detached like oh so it's supposed to be like that it's one of those ones it's really
really tricky because there's there's obviously the way how we deal with educating on that front is
i haven't seen it myself like the the whole islamic psychology thing i think it's
it's been there but it's never been sort of out there okay so it's so for example like if you're 14 year old
adolescent and you're growing up with like different ethnicities and different religious beliefs and different
agendas and things like that and your audi and that's the time where you're formulating your thoughts and becoming
your identity your identity and then new kinds of like approaches to how to or like identifying with different
things for example like feminism and things like that and you're like this is where i feel most at home and all that
and your sense of belonging your sense of belonging which as um as a muslim
the umma is where you should really feel home right and that's the part where you feel as though you've been
like kicked out yeah even not physically but like mentally you're like okay like i'm just
part of a parade at this point so it's like how do i deal with that or who do i go to
or i can't tell my mom i'm having these thoughts otherwise i'll be treated as this or she's going to send
me to him and he doesn't know what to do is so tricky because there isn't a medium to talk there isn't a medium to
sort of acknowledge there isn't a medium to validate it's like you're okay to think like that
yes now where do we go from here and actually if we think about it the prophets before they actually
received the message they all went through a series of introspection like the last pandal i
didn't just like here here's the message go spread that out ibrahim he was like always perplexed in
thoughts thinking is this right is this not right it's not like that you don't just get to enlightenment or
you don't just get to the message by just like receiving it it doesn't work like that there is a
there should there's nothing wrong with struggling and doubting and questioning there's nothing wrong with that it can
be the beginning of a very fruitful blossoming and that's the difference it's like am i going to be fertilized or am i going to
be malnourished that's where the community comes in that's what acknowledging actually we need to do these things for
the youth or we need to say there's issues with this because what do where do i seek comfort from i end up typing google away oh is it
normal to feel is it it comes like that and then you become part of communities that say
that you feel better ostracized or like away from because all of a sudden you feel home in
being alone if that makes sense it's really tricky i do think community engagement is
something that we need to take more seriously absolutely 100 recognizing that um
recognizing that we do have issues because like yes my religion is perfect but god knows where not
so it comes to that also training training consultations like say for example
if you do have people on the field or people who are interested the way how we deal with them our behavior our language
techniques our communication because we don't know how to communicate no i think i don't know if you see
but like we really don't know how to communicate i feel like you can see the most greatest cheer and all that but
sometimes it's like they're just books they're just walking books how do i how do i tell them this
is the way forward or how do i explain to them or even just compassion even just compassion it comes to the
most basic things i feel like before like part of being a muslim 90 percent is actually being
human right being good yeah being a good human and that sometimes
you know it is individual to every person so whatever good means to you i mean like theme i feel
like the most amazing ways that actually people do become muslims is when they when they see like an act of kindness absolutely
not because of like um a school of thought has said this therefore you must do this that's not the way they went into it you
mentioned um [Music] imams i think our muslim institutions in
the uk um whether that be charities or mosques need to take more of an active role in educating
their communities so up and down the country wherever there are mosques um we should have these training things
available and different languages as well different languages events that that are taking place throughout the year that it's difficult
but teams will you know within the computer community that are able to give up time to organize those things would make
such a difference much better it's like you need to develop a sense of selflessness to actually
help yourself it is true it's like at this point it's not about um having mental health services more
accessible to say but promoting a dialogue that's what we need and that's what you said like
muslim representatives or people taking out their time that's what's needed because from there we can improve mental health literacy
we can start to break down stigma we can start to actually um prevent things from going
worse and just starting small because you can see it's the way forward like you can't like rome wasn't built in a day right
right yeah you can't start with like such huge things it starts with the very smallest things in communities maybe just taking action
you know within themselves little steps to kind of formulate groups or
how much a good fruitful discussion detangles a web even not necessarily say for example i'm
with a group of friends and we're discussing an issue a mental health issue not everyone has to be speaking but the
fact that taking things in is like oh oh that's actually true things like
that and then you you'd be surprised how more people come through and more people come through especially i think in particular to the
older generation because i think with youngsters nowadays or like muslims like myself and stuff i
think we're very much aware in the mental health capacity like we recognize right right but everybody is vulnerable it's not just
yeah you know young people that you have to suffer most and like you said statistics are skewed
not necessarily relied upon so actually all different groups within our society
can and do suffer from mental health problems yeah especially for example we don't like our parents or older
generations they wouldn't want to admit but it makes sense there's a lot of um there's a lot of concealed trauma
and actually understanding that way would make me become more of an understanding person like you said before oh this is the reason why because
they haven't healed because there is an inner child trapped and it's actually really sad when you discover these things they're like
there's so much work to be done but you don't want it to be too late 30 years down the line when it's become
this is me this is who i am this is too late to change because that's what you hear right it's like oh this is the way they are
no this is their defense yeah so i think there's that's not to say we
lose hope no i think just like i said recognizing is the most important thing to begin with because it means we can start to
dismantle leading on from some of the things we spoke about in terms of
reflection um what would you say are some of the self-care things that you might do
another kind of jargon word but yeah um any kind of rituals or things that you'd like to do for yourself to unwind
relax i feel like to begin with i feel we actually need to talk about what the self-care mean
for like how would you just how would you say what self-care is if i say self-care what's the first thing that pops up uh
don't tell me face masks very good um for me it is relaxing to be
honest with you but i am also aware that there are different aspects to self-care i agree
right so how how you see it as you say and how you define it um but mine would be how do i
relax and take time for myself in you know a lot my normal day-to-day
where i'm constantly running around and you know
doing things yeah yeah i think soft care has sort of such a
huge consumerist token now mm-hmm i feel like it's like been exploited back again with capitalism like
self-care self-care self-care i don't want to care for myself anymore but no i think self-care these different
ways there's the mental there's the physical and there's the spiritual i think spiritual is a huge
part of it when i say that is so often overlooked that's even by us either oversold or underlooked
subhanallah yeah i think for mental for example like we mentioned before journaling is a good way
um the whole emotional clarity thing yeah also um another one maybe meditation
meditation but then you know it's interesting with meditation it's like do i need to meditate if i pray or am i
doing praying wrong hmm because you know with praying you think it's an issue they can give you different things
depends on you maybe i should start seeing prayer as a different thing rather than think seeing it as an instruction or like a divine order i
must do and complete because god doesn't need it i need it no so maybe i should take prayer as the
moment for me to reflect and really spoil my like spill my worries like say i hope to
come like that or even breathing techniques while i pray right that's very good because i think the whole breathing meditation and all
that stuff i'm not saying treat prayers or yoga i'm not really i love this it's like being more intentional or
being more present when i pray because yoga is all about being present right it's all about being in the moment
i'm pretty sure that's what prayer is about yeah even though i'm like even for example that tahiyat or
for example saud or the way how i place my palms being aware and more and more
importantly that divine orchestration to god's panel um so i think the way how we deal with prayer
is very interesting as well another one i would say is um exercise
nature nature's a really big one i feel like because we're all we're all in an urban city now we're all
like we're all polluted in one way or another i think just seeing some green
yeah really helps for me it does wonders i actually lord knows if i see a dog i'll get even
more happy like no for real the trees and like grass and the chloroform like yeah give it to me
especially like london here it's just co2 after searching i mean different things work for
different people so definitely you and i share that i i love just walking in a forest or a field
i feel like that does breathing in wonder that does wonder and also the thing with um which i think
guilty this whole like being offline um sort of taking a detox from
technology which is really tricky that's that's the floor of mine
because like we mentioned before we're more present online than offline so maybe if i'm present offline and
actually become more more in tune with my sensory experience
it can sort of delve into the whole self-care system if that makes sense another one is food
food i think food is one of the biggest things out there that we undersell all the time and i actually
think holland and barrett is going to rip you off if you just go there because they're doing much better job than we are because i actually think
it's the prophet's prophetic tradition to actually really take care of the way you eat i may be speaking as a hypocrite right now
but i do want to start to take that even more so i think that was almost like a trend that's come and gone yes you know the health craves but
actually it's something that um should be really considered you know outside of our nervous system
percent of the neurons which is a hundred million of them are in our gut so there is a gut they actually call the
gut your second brain that's how important it is and that's probably a way that intermittent fasting comes in
as well also your micro bacteria that's there and everything so if 70 of like the outside of my
nervous system is in my gut and it's actually it connects through a cord called the vagus nerve so if they're in tune together through
this surely what i'm putting in is having a huge effect here on my yeah on your psyche on your
mental well-being on the way even like your brain would affect the way how you take things for example if i'm feeling
sick it's because i'm feeling anxious and the other way around they work together right so me taking care of the way i eat
or like he said before crunching i think has an effect whether you like it or not so there's always signals
going from the brain to your stomach from your stomach to your brain yep yep it's like a bluetooth sort of thing
and um yeah so i think we really we really don't take uh i feel like as muslims we
don't take care of the way we eat especially with the whole the whole like the whole
generation like everything's food let's go out into the food picks and all that fast food fast food and everything
we're actually supporting gluttony we don't want to admit it but we're obsessed with our stomachs i
think it's this lifestyle the lifestyle we're in now also the treat yourself lifestyle 100 100 i don't think we're attentive or
mindful because mindfulness like you can do yoga and you can do this and you can talk it out
but surely you're like you know i don't know if you have the old phrase you're not going to put like old oil in a lamborghini or something
like that but it's the same with your body right i mean i know in arabic they have this phase um this phrase is like um
i don't know how you translate it properly but it's like healthy body healthy mind sort of thing so they are connected to one another
because we are closely yeah we're not just like i don't think we should
cheapen ourselves with cheap food yeah we should take i mean i think coming off of that
as well cooking is is a thing that i really enjoy last thing i need to start to enjoy
yeah i like like what what kind of like cookings do you like to do well i'm kurdish so i make a lot of rice
and soups and chicken and stuff like you make wine leaves and stuff sometimes yeah yeah
i love that but even like for example cooking instead of like ordering out things like that the whole process of
like washing food yeah they even say it's very therapeutic they even say turn it spiritual they say
like senseless why you do that like have buttercup in your food like you're doing two-in-one
right um another one i would say with self-care i actually think good
friendships are a big one big one because it's like the environment that you put yourself in
is either going to deplete you or nourish you you choose yeah i feel like we're with like a
society that takes offense to everything they really don't take respect to who they're friends with because if
i'm not saying cut your toxic friends but be aware of how they're feeding you
because if like yeah if you're in an environment that is constantly toxic will constantly blame constantly
victim constantly things like that you're not gonna grow from there you're going to feel depleted each and every
time i think um good friendships is a good self-care definitely yeah um the other thing i
wanted to ask you was about a hadith i know that you wanted to mention one here
because you know how you um you were talking about compassion and how can like the muslim community be
more active and things like that one of them is recognizing our humanity and i say this because
and you know how we spoke about empathy before and everything it just took me to a hadith that says um it's something along the lines where
if if a muslim if one part of them is hurt the whole body hurts so it takes compassion love and mercy
right and i think we forget that we're so used to being instructed to do this or as haram will do this i don't know we don't take a
step back to say to actually resonate with the human right because i think another one for self-care is
actually communal care it's actually being a community service because it helps your own self
so i think that's compassion becomes a huge part of you as a person
yeah that's what i wanted to say thank you so much it's been amazing to have you no i loved
it um thanks again thank you thank you for tuning in to this episode of the mindful muslim podcast
make sure to subscribe on youtube spotify soundcloud
and all of the others make sure to leave us ratings as well i hope you enjoy it
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